--- Log opened Wed Feb 22 21:11:06 2006
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21:55 <@bodly> hola
21:55 < dylanks> hey
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21:59 <@slightlyoff> hey all
21:59 -!- wild_bill2 [n=bill@softbank221036067016.bbtec.net] has joined #dojo-meeting
21:59 <@slightlyoff> holy crap, I've been op'd!
21:59 < dylanks> hey
21:59 < wild_bill2> congratulations
21:59 <@bodly> yeah i think thats tk's client :)
21:59 < dylanks> op'd?
22:00 -!- mode/#dojo-meeting [+o dylanks] by bodly
22:00 <@bodly> muhahahah
22:00 <@dylanks> ah :)
22:00 <@dylanks> I don't know what that means, but cool :)
22:00 <@bodly> you can ban kick silence people
22:01 <@bodly> things like that from this channel
22:01 <@bodly> nothing we ever really ahve to use on #dojo (a good thing since there are never any ops in there), but i imagine we'll never need on this channel
22:01 -!- holoway [n=adam@peer.sef.marchex.com] has joined #dojo-meeting
22:01 < mstrout> in tech channels, ops are only really useful for limiting who can set the topic and invite bots
22:02 <@slightlyoff> so I can't really stay long today
22:02 <@slightlyoff> I'm trying to lock down some Jot features before FOSDEM, and it's down to the wire
22:02 <@dylanks> :)
22:03 <@slightlyoff> and, you know, they pay the bills ;-)
22:04 < wild_bill2> ah, that's what you've been doing :-)
22:04 < wild_bill2> there's nobody here...
22:04 <@dylanks> yeah, I've been in isolation with renkoo dev also
22:04 <@dylanks> solitary confinement until I emerge with a new release or something :)
22:05 <@bodly> ok, i'm not sure what all there is to discuss specifically, but we did defer things until bill was here
22:05 < wild_bill2> ?
22:05 <@bodly> from the last meeting.
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22:06 <@dylanks> hey peller
22:06 < peller> hey. thanks for the reminder :)
22:06 < wild_bill2> right. so what did you defer? i know there's a lot of stuff that needs to get done, specifically w/widget refactoring etc., but i guess we can't discuss it now, maybe.
22:07 <@bodly> let me pull up last weeks agenda and see.
22:07 <@slightlyoff> good call = )
22:08 <@dylanks> we archive those things? :p
22:08 <@slightlyoff> heh
22:08 <@bodly> so, iirc this was the deal
22:08 <@bodly> here is last week btw, file:///home/dmachi/work/com_elasticpath/webroot/dojo/tests/widget/test_FloatingPane?.html
22:08 <@bodly> ewps
22:08 <@bodly> not that
22:08 <@bodly> http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome/WeeklyIrcMeetings/Irc060215
22:08 <@slightlyoff> yeah, we archive them so that future generations can have an idea what fiction in the year 2006 was like ;-)
22:08 <@dylanks> :)
22:08 <@bodly> the widget item was on the Roadmap there, but I don't think that we really had any specific there , it was just carried over from the week before
22:09 <@bodly> under dataprovider, i seem to recall there was discussion on api that widgets would use for accessing data
22:09 <@bodly> and that would need bill for discussion
22:09 < wild_bill2> eh, you don't need me for that.
22:09 <@bodly> then there was widget optimizations, which i think is primarily a mxpxpod thing that for splitpanes
22:10 <@bodly> anyone else feel free to jump in and complete my memory :)
22:11 <@bodly> wild_bill2, i think the reason for your input on the data provider thing is so that we can make sure we provide the methods that can get the data that is needed by widgets generically
22:11 <@dylanks> and of course there was my crazy long list of widget improvements which everyone thinks sounds great if I have time to implement it :)
22:11 < wild_bill2> yeah. The two things I can think are that 1) I moved the widget projects into jot: http://dojo.jot.com/WidgetProjects and 2) dylan added a long list of widget refactoring tasks. http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome/WidgetRefactoring
22:12 < wild_bill2> OK then, about the data provider thing, should I read the doc and get back to you? i don't think i can say anything intelligent now
22:14 <@dylanks> so I'm inclined to say its an open discussion day on any dev stuff
22:14 <@dylanks> and I'd also like to ask about the roadmap dates
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22:14 < wild_bill2> roadmap .... it's hard to judge that one. can we talk a bit about the resizing changes?
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22:15 <@dylanks> sure, I guess I'm just wondering if we should push back a bit
22:15 < wild_bill2> push the dates back?
22:15 <@dylanks> yeah
22:16 < wild_bill2> at this point i have no way to even guess when things will be finished.
22:16 < wild_bill2> dylan - your widget refactoring list will take a number of years :-)
22:16 <@dylanks> right, I just think that given our list, 3 weeks seems unattainable
22:17 < wild_bill2> oh, is that what it says? yeah, that won't happen.
22:17 <@dylanks> :)
22:17 -!- [algo] [n=algonoal@ppp85-140-125-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #dojo-meeting
22:17 * [algo] recons the surroundings.
22:18 <@dylanks> so then the question becomes, do we split the release, etc.
22:18 <@dylanks> it seems that so far, we don't have nearly as many bugs in 0.2.2 that are impacting people
22:18 <@slightlyoff> 0.3.0 is all about making new ones = )
22:18 <@bodly> hehe, well that or we just say wait till 0.3.0
22:18 -!- [algo] is now known as algo_logging_afk
22:19 <@dylanks> right, I just like to be able to set realistic expectations
22:19 <@dylanks> (people complained about this a lot previously)
22:19 <@bodly> yeah
22:19 <@bodly> i agree
22:20 < wild_bill2> realistically, it seems there are a bunch of projects for 0.3 but not a lot of volunteers so they are just stagnating.
22:20 <@bodly> well i think some of those things, like svg, vml (which we don't hear alot of specific requests for) can be pushed back And perhaps the data providers stuff should be push out completely
22:21 < wild_bill2> ok
22:21 <@bodly> focus this on the getting the widgets refactored so we can move forward
22:21 <@bodly> especially since hopefully in the future we'll hear good news from some big three letter company about data provider stuff :P
22:21 <@dylanks> yeah, it's really hurt us that so many core contribs have been so busy recently
22:21 -!- zza [n=chatzill@adsl-69-236-202-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #dojo-meeting
22:21 <@slightlyoff> yeah
22:21 <@slightlyoff> agreed
22:22 < brian_skinner> bodly: i'm eager to try to get some of the data provider stuff in -- slightlyoff: any word from a big three letter company?
22:22 <@slightlyoff> peller?
22:22 < brian_skinner> hey, hi peller
22:22 <@bodly> brian_skinner, this is of course not to say we can't put something in before 0.3, but no promises that we'll work all that hard to make sure it is actually available to be used for 0.3
22:22 < brian_skinner> bodly: yup
22:23 <@bodly> which reminds me it would still be nice to mark something as experimental like we do with deprecated
22:23 < brian_skinner> bodly: +1
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22:23 <@slightlyoff> so dojo.experimental()?
22:23 < brian_skinner> i've got some data provider code that I'd like to check in somewhere, but only if i can clearly mark it as experimental
22:23 < wild_bill2> sure
22:23 < brian_skinner> or an SVN branch?
22:23 <@slightlyoff> put it in the __package__.js files?
22:24 < wild_bill2> hmm, i'd rather avoid a branch
22:24 <@bodly> slightlyoff, would be fine by me,
22:24 <@slightlyoff> well, if it's in the __package__.js's, it'd allow module users to be informed
22:24 -!- peller_ [n=chatzill@209-6-229-46.c3-0.nwt-ubr2.sbo-nwt.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #dojo-meeting
22:24 * peller_ smacks thinkpad
22:24 <@slightlyoff> heh
22:24 <@slightlyoff> what should the arguments to dojo.experimental() be?
22:25 <@bodly> another way we could do that is just by naming convention
22:25 <@bodly> for example experimental_Data
22:25 <@bodly> which when it is no longer experimental
22:25 <@bodly> it becomes data
22:25 <@bodly> that would avoid having to deprecate and rename things like we do now.
22:25 <@slightlyoff> should the experiemental stuff evolve just fine in-place, it would mean we'd have to rename regardless
22:26 <@slightlyoff> so what seems more common: in-place evolution in a namespace? or transient code that dies out of a namespace quickly?
22:26 <@bodly> yeah, except when the new one is completely taking the place of something that alredy exists or you have competing examples
22:26 <@bodly> think button/button2 menu/menu2
22:26 <@bodly> at least i think those are good examples of what I mean :P
22:26 < wild_bill2> right, that seems more common, recently anyway.
22:27 < brian_skinner> the problem of an experimental replacement (button/button2 menu/menu2) seems harder to solve than the problem of an experimental addition
22:28 <@bodly> slightlyoff, what do you mean by in-place evolution...is this something liek the interface changes completely
22:28 <@dylanks> alex and I tend to check stuff in so that it's there so it can be made better
22:28 <@bodly> brian_skinner, well i think that will always be hard. My main point is that if "data" is going to be our provider location
22:28 <@bodly> we probably want to be sure we have the right hting so we don't have to deprecate it and move something else in its place
22:29 <@bodly> though I guess marking it as experimental would be sufficient to warn people that this may change and we aren't going to bother with deprecation.
22:29 <@dylanks> so I think you want something that makes it easy to turn on/off experimental stuff, but that doesn't require changing all naming conventions
22:29 <@dylanks> I use a deprecation warning with my svg color picker, but that seems suboptimal
22:29 -!- ttrenka [n=ttrenka@c-24-118-178-68.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #dojo-meeting
22:30 <@bodly> i think the turn on/off is a build/package thing right? I think most people right now just want to know whether something is experimental (should it work or not?) like with editortree and ical and things like that
22:30 <@bodly> i might be off mark though.
22:30 < wild_bill2> ok, it sounds like dojo.experimental() but it really doesn't matter
22:30 <@bodly> i'm cool with that
22:31 <@bodly> i don't know what the parameters would be, maybe just a message to display
22:31 < brian_skinner> dojo.experimental() would certainly be a step forward
22:31 < wild_bill2> ok brian, can you add a dojo.experimental function and then check in your data provider stuff?
22:32 < brian_skinner> wild_bill2: yup -- although maybe i should check in with slightlyoff and peller first, because my stuff might be moot soon :-)
22:32 < wild_bill2> yeah, lots of allusions to that, or whatever the word is.
22:32 < brian_skinner> and i don't want to clutter up the namespace prematurely
22:33 < wild_bill2> comments from slightlyoff / peller?
22:33 < wild_bill2> i guess your comment is "no comment"
22:33 < brian_skinner> or peller_?
22:33 <@slightlyoff> hrm
22:33 <@slightlyoff> well, I'm mostly just concerned that we are promising what we will deliver
22:33 <@slightlyoff> so if something is experimental but everyone is using it anyway, is it really experimental?
22:33 <@slightlyoff> we're pre-1.0 by a long shot
22:33 <@slightlyoff> instability is expected
22:34 <@bodly> well they don't know whether to use it or not thats the point right?
22:34 <@slightlyoff> ok
22:34 <@bodly> dojo.experimental() should be fine, even if it just slaps up a debugging message
22:34 <@slightlyoff> so what we want is more of a "don't use" flag, and not an "experimental" flag?
22:34 < brian_skinner> when i was first getting started with dojo, i got burned a couple times when i wasn't able to tell which code was intended for use and which stuff wasn't
22:35 < brian_skinner> slightlyoff: +1 for "don't use"
22:35 < wild_bill2> Just a flag that means it will change w/out the customary 1 release deprecation
22:35 <@bodly> yeah, personally "don't use" seems a little harsh. what bill says ^
22:36 <@dylanks> well, there's experimental, and there's incomplete
22:36 < ttrenka> hey guys, i'm sorry I'm late, is there an agenda somewhere?
22:36 < brian_skinner> "unstable API: use at your own risk"
22:36 < brian_skinner> hey ttrenka
22:36 < brian_skinner> i was going to ask that too
22:36 < ttrenka> hey, sorry, I had a HD take a dump on me
22:36 < ttrenka> i'm not happy right now.
22:36 <@bodly> ttrenka, we'ere just going off of last weeks and discussing the roadmap
22:36 < ttrenka> ok
22:36 <@slightlyoff> ttrenka: oof, sorry to hear that = |
22:36 < ttrenka> frickin pin broke
22:37 < ttrenka> i'm SO pissed
22:37 <@bodly> :(
22:37 < wild_bill2> ok, here's my suggestion. dylan - let's just mark 0.3 release date as TBD. we can't even make a guess right now. today let's just talk about status of people that are actively working on dojo.
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22:38 <@bodly> i don't care what the flag is called, as long as people know it won't follow the customary deprecation and it could be incomplete. i see all those cases as one in the same from the user's perpsective.
22:38 < wild_bill2> i agree
22:38 < mstrout> "EXPERIMENTAL, ALPHA, MAY EAT YOUR DOG"
22:38 < mstrout> </delurk>
22:39 < ttrenka> oh shit. This is because of me getting ready to pull reflect, isn't it
22:39 <@dylanks> nope
22:39 <@bodly> nope :P
22:39 <@dylanks> data providers
22:39 < mxpxpod> where's the agenda and where are we at in it?
22:39 < ttrenka> well good then :)
22:39 < mxpxpod> :)
22:39 < wild_bill2> slightlyoff - should brian bother to check in? will this code be obsolete soon? i guess you can't say?
22:39 <@bodly> editortree, ical, etc all the stuff that is there but not done yet and people don't know its intended status but you get it all witha "release"
22:40 <@slightlyoff> yeah
22:40 <@bodly> mxpxpod, last weeks agenda on dojo.jot.com. and we're discussing the roadmaps.
22:41 < wild_bill2> ok then, should we talk about active projects?
22:41 < mxpxpod> thank you
22:41 < brian_skinner> http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome/WeeklyIrcMeetings/Irc060215
22:41 <@dylanks> wild_bill2: as much as I'd like to say TBD, people that are choosing dojo need to have some release schedule guidance
22:41 * mxpxpod listens
22:41 < wild_bill2> dylanks - what do you suggest?
22:41 <@slightlyoff> I agree w/ dylanks
22:42 <@bodly> my suggestion is to pear that release down and then decide how long it will take to do it
22:42 <@dylanks> I suggest we pick a new date based on what we have on our plate
22:42 <@dylanks> and if we have to drop some features or shift features, then ok
22:43 <@bodly> my personal opinion is to drop anything off that isn't focused on the widget refactoring. Its a large task and I think that given the number of recent volunteers, we're all going to have to pitch into get it done.
22:44 -!- peller [n=chatzill@209-6-229-46.c3-0.nwt-ubr2.sbo-nwt.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
22:44 < wild_bill2> ok, that seems reasonable, although refactoring in itself has no end value to users.... well, ok, what does refactoring mean specifically?
22:44 <@bodly> well i think in that we should have a consitant api, and that everyting can be called from markup or programmatically would be beneficial to suers
22:44 <@slightlyoff> well, widget refactoring and namespace system refactoring
22:44 <@slightlyoff> the namespace stuff is biting everyone
22:44 <@bodly> not to mention the theming or whatever.
22:45 <@slightlyoff> well, themeing is something everyone wants, but it's not a current pain-point
22:45 < ttrenka> true
22:45 <@slightlyoff> I think we should prioritize based on project goals:
22:45 <@slightlyoff> 1.) adoption blockers
22:45 <@bodly> well, sort of. It was on the list to have two themes (a basic and a nice one) for this release :P
22:45 <@slightlyoff> 2.) simplicity hurdles
22:46 <@slightlyoff> 3.) new features
22:46 < wild_bill2> ok
22:46 <@dylanks> 4.) reduce bloat/redundancy
22:46 <@slightlyoff> I put that w/ 1
22:46 <@dylanks> ok
22:46 < ttrenka> should I bring up the sub project suggestion?
22:46 * ttrenka ducks and runs
22:46 <@slightlyoff> ttrenka: perhaps, but I'm not sure how it's going to muster more manpower to the cause
22:47 <@slightlyoff> it seems it's just more communication overhead
22:47 < ttrenka> i'm not thinking manpower on that as much as focus and addressing the perception of bloat
22:47 <@slightlyoff> but I'm open to being convinced that it's not = )
22:47 < ttrenka> as well as sort of speaking to the namespace problem
22:47 <@slightlyoff> so a lot of poeple pick up Dojo because it's one-stop-shopping
22:47 < ttrenka> right, no issues there
22:48 < ttrenka> I would use Moz as the model
22:48 <@dylanks> I don't know that bloat is a big adoption hurdle right now
22:48 < ttrenka> I'm thinking long term
22:48 < wild_bill2> yeah, i agree w/dylanks. this doesn't seem like a #1 issue.
22:48 <@dylanks> I'm thinking short term :)
22:48 < ttrenka> you would
22:48 < ttrenka> :)
22:49 <@bodly> dylanks, i agree, but misuse of things like kitchen sink cause a perception of bloat that does turn people off.
22:49 < ttrenka> (being on hold with Seagate sucks)
22:49 <@dylanks> well, short term changes long term before long term arrives
22:49 <@dylanks> bodly: right, but we do have some things in place to address that already
22:49 <@dylanks> packaging, release editions, etc.
22:49 <@slightlyoff> so strategy aside, do we have a tactic for discouraging use of the kitchen sink?
22:49 * mstrout notes he's pimped dojo to a couple dozen people in the past week and would happily give aggregated feedback if anybody cares - but in the meantime will shut up while the people who know what they're talking about talk
22:50 < ttrenka> please do
22:50 <@dylanks> not that we can't do better with making code less bloated... I'm just not convinced that we are so big that we need subprojects yet
22:50 <@bodly> right, we do probably need to do a better job of making sure that users select the correct thing on their own (I don't know how so don't ask :P)
22:50 < ttrenka> well...here's my thinking. There's a definite core of Dojo which many different things can be built on
22:50 < ttrenka> the widget system being the big one for Dojo right now
22:50 <@slightlyoff> we could rename "kitchen sink" to "boat anchor" ;-)
22:50 < ttrenka> lol
22:51 < iTorrey> "windows edition" ;)
22:51 < ttrenka> ...anyways, I would think that instead of "packages", we'd basically release actual "libraries"
22:51 < mxpxpod> iTorrey: no, that edition would crash constantly
22:51 < ttrenka> i guess
22:51 < ttrenka> libraries ain't the right word
22:51 < brian_skinner> slightlyoff: "tactic for discouraging use of the kitchen sink" -- could you just not having a kitchen sink available in 0.3
22:51 <@bodly> slightlyoff, i wonder if we can make custom builds for the users. Let them select what they want and we generate a download...we'd of course have to find a way to make it get done fast which i'm not sure is possible. but we could cache alot of stuff so it wouldn't relaly matter.
22:51 < ttrenka> well
22:52 <@bodly> from the web interface that is of course.
22:52 < ttrenka> that's the point of the packages
22:52 <@bodly> yeah, but they dont' get that far
22:52 <@slightlyoff> well, I do like the idea of a "build picker"
22:52 < mstrout> generating a version of http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojo.js that used builds instead of individual requires would really help
22:52 < ttrenka> it's not the clearest on the web site and I'll be the first to say that it's a promotional problem as much as a coding one
22:52 < mstrout> I keep fighting people looking at that, going "but it's slow to load, clearer that makes prototype much better"
22:52 < mstrout> *clearly
22:52 < mstrout> (which is retarded, but first impressions etc.)
22:53 <@bodly> ttrenka, i would think we could easily build a build picker with pottedmeats existing json definitions.
22:53 <@slightlyoff> bodly: agree
22:53 < mxpxpod> I think we should seriously consider what ttrenka is saying
22:53 < mxpxpod> not just a "build" picker
22:53 < ttrenka> i don't have a problem with that at all
22:53 < ttrenka> but we don't have it yet :)
22:53 <@bodly> ttrenka, true enough :)
22:54 <@dylanks> stuff that does less will of course load faster in general
22:54 < ttrenka> I'm only bringing it up because, well, browsing the source is very daunting for the first time Dojo-er
22:54 <@bodly> definately
22:54 < brian_skinner> openrecord has been using dojo infrastructure for many months (like the package systems, and events), but we've only just recently started using dojo widgets -- my first impression is that even simple dojo widgets are ...slow... to load -- haven't yet had time to profile it and see what's going on
22:54 < ttrenka> limiting the widget parser by specifiying IDs help
22:54 <@slightlyoff> mstrout: what were users expecting?
22:54 * ttrenka seconds the q
22:55 <@slightlyoff> mstrout: what would a better introduction be?
22:55 <@dylanks> ttrenka: I would say thought, that the dojo source tree is much smaller than browsing JS APIs
22:55 < mstrout> links to a few of the flashier tests, effects, autocomplete, dashboard etc.
22:56 < mstrout> all running off builds so the startup time is minimised
22:56 <@bodly> i don't think its too bad until you run into the widgets and see the subdirs beneath that. Its not patently obvious to everyone what that stuff is.
22:56 < ttrenka> dylanks: I'm not disagreeing with you...I'm trying to address the perception, and speak to some of the advantages some of our "competitors" have
22:56 < ttrenka> and consequently take it away from them :)
22:56 <@bodly> i do agree here with mstrout, it would be good to get our tests/exampels running of built code soe they perform better (assuming it would make them perform better)
22:57 <@slightlyoff> bodly: it will
22:57 <@dylanks> ttrenka: I didn't know we were disagreeing :)
22:57 < ttrenka> :)
22:57 <@slightlyoff> bodly: and how. Examples running off of builds kick everything else's ass
22:57 < mstrout> erm, a back-button demo that includes form submits would be a killer too
22:58 <@slightlyoff> so we're back to demos
22:58 <@dylanks> lol
22:58 <@slightlyoff> our demos blow
22:58 <@bodly> hehe, it always comes down to demos
22:58 <@dylanks> the dojo web site should be a demo
22:58 <@bodly> funny how that is.
22:58 <@bodly> dylanks, i think so too
22:58 <@slightlyoff> so this is a significant barrier to adoption
22:58 < mstrout> just pick a few demos and have a script that copies 'em into place and makes 'em use builds
22:58 < mstrout> seriously. that'd be enough for a start
22:58 <@bodly> its also cool for the doc system using dojo
22:58 < holoway> can I give a confused user perspective?
22:58 < mstrout> 20 lines of shell, maybe?
22:59 <@slightlyoff> holoway: please
22:59 < holoway> dojo does so many things
22:59 < holoway> that it's difficult for a user who just wants it to do the one thing they need to see how it would do that
22:59 < holoway> autocomplete being a fine example
23:00 < holoway> so it's less demo's in the "rails movie" sense, and it's more a fleshed out example (beyond the one in the tests)
23:00 <@bodly> cookbook
23:00 < holoway> bodly: yes
23:00 < iTorrey> I agree. I think we should work on demos that are less about how to use every API and make demos that do things people commonly need
23:01 < holoway> the API is neat, but it's not what I wanted when I first started digging
23:01 * holoway returns to lurking
23:01 <@slightlyoff> ok, so we agree that we need demos that do useful things
23:01 <@slightlyoff> concrete suggestions on things that Dojo makes better that you want for your app?
23:01 <@bodly> holoway, so creating a cookbook section on the wiki where people could place "recipes" of how to do specific things the dojo way
23:02 <@bodly> would that be a good way?
23:02 < holoway> that would be great
23:03 <@bodly> we could start it by populating with much of our test_ examples.
23:03 <@bodly> slightlyoff, will that work welll in the wiki, or would it be better to have it where some of these recipes could actually run?
23:03 <@bodly> (or could we do that from within the wiki)
23:04 < mstrout> is the build-creation system pure js? if so, an "add a button that assembles and downloads a build for this page" widget would be extremely handy
23:04 < mstrout> or at least a "list deps to feed into build system"
23:04 < brian_skinner> so would there be code that's duplicated -- in both the test_ examples and in the cookbook area of the wiki?
23:04 < mstrout> and that'd make running $random_demo on a build trivial
23:04 <@slightlyoff> I'm more in favor of well-groomed example pages in SVN
23:05 <@bodly> mstrout, no, its an ant thing now...which i think would be the challenge (to make it run fast enough for user interaction) but a build piccker that simply outputted a profile
23:05 <@slightlyoff> something that isn't as susceptable to the vagaries of when I make a new Dojo build for Jot ;-)
23:05 <@bodly> mstrout, should be easy.
23:05 < holoway> brian_skinner, perhaps simply wrapping narrative around the tests?
23:05 <@slightlyoff> I think the tests aren't tests at that point
23:05 <@slightlyoff> they're demos
23:06 <@slightlyoff> which isn't bad
23:06 < wild_bill2> which competitor has the best example site? let's copy them.
23:06 < mstrout> yes. what I'm trying to say is just running the tests off builds as semi-demos would be a fine start
23:06 < mstrout> script.aculo.us
23:06 <@slightlyoff> but we need to decide which we want
23:06 <@dylanks> Here's a plan:
23:06 <@slightlyoff> Backbase
23:06 <@slightlyoff> they're slow as hell, but they're sexy
23:06 <@dylanks> everyone that is interested write one demo for next weeks meeting
23:07 <@dylanks> then let's compare and see what we like and dislike
23:07 <@dylanks> get ideas from that
23:07 <@dylanks> etc.
23:07 <@bodly> I started to write something previously that would be a wrapper for all those little demos
23:07 <@dylanks> and come up with a format
23:07 <@slightlyoff> and winners get UI cleanup from Torrey?
23:07 <@bodly> hehe :)
23:07 <@dylanks> :)
23:07 < ttrenka> lol
23:07 <@dylanks> good thing I'll be starting with the DatePicker :p
23:07 < iTorrey> Sounds good :)
23:07 < ttrenka> (just reading now, just got off the phone with Seagate)
23:08 < iTorrey> I was actually thinking if I had time doing a demo as well
23:08 <@bodly> what happens if torrey wins, he gets a code cleanup from slightlyoff ?
23:08 <@dylanks> lol
23:08 < iTorrey> LMAO
23:08 <@dylanks> you've seen alex's code, right :p
23:09 <@dylanks> there's no spaces :)
23:09 <@slightlyoff> haha
23:09 < iTorrey> BTW me thinks Dylan will be using these styles for his pickers http://itorrey.com/dojo/
23:09 <@bodly> ok so the moral of the story is everyone should be amking an effort to do a good demo by next week of a specific thing (pretty focused)
23:09 <@slightlyoff> mmm....yummy
23:10 <@slightlyoff> does that seem like a good idea to everyone?
23:10 <@dylanks> I think it's a good idea
23:10 < wild_bill2> sure
23:10 <@slightlyoff> I like it because it does a couple of things
23:10 <@slightlyoff> 1.) it focuses on a significant barrier to adoption
23:10 <@slightlyoff> 2.) it'll turn up more issues w/ the widgets
23:10 <@dylanks> wild_bill2 likes it because it is an actionable item ;)
23:10 <@slightlyoff> heh
23:11 <@slightlyoff> I'll try to bang out something on the plane ride back
23:11 <@dylanks> so we need a list
23:11 <@dylanks> so that we don't all do date picker demos
23:11 < mxpxpod> aw, come on
23:11 <@bodly> yeah we should create a wiki page where people can note what they're doing
23:11 <@dylanks> :)
23:11 <@dylanks> right
23:11 < ttrenka> one thing I should mention is that we can't rely on the wiki to push demos to the general public
23:12 < wild_bill2> i think alex already decided that the demos will be on www.dojotoolkit.org.
23:12 <@dylanks> right, for now all we have decided is that is the sign up page
23:13 < wild_bill2> ok, first person to start on a demo, add a sign up page to the wiki.
23:13 <@dylanks> I'll add one now unless someone else is already doing so
23:13 < wild_bill2> ok
23:14 <@bodly> i guess right now the point of a cookbook type thing on the wiki is so that people could get their "demos" up (non contribs) without cla and all that overhead that they just won't do for a simple demo. So ultimately i think it will be good if we can find a way for people to submit their own recipeis, even if they are just additions to the wiki and show the code/text and can't do a live demo
23:14 <@slightlyoff> ok, I really have to go =
23:14 <@slightlyoff> sorry everyone
23:14 <@bodly> but i think that is seperate than what we have to do for next week
23:14 <@bodly> later
23:14 <@slightlyoff> keep the agenda updated so I can look back at it?
23:14 <@bodly> now we can talk about him
23:14 <@slightlyoff> heh
23:15 <@bodly> ow weps he hasn't left yet
23:15 <@bodly> :P
23:15 <@slightlyoff> you for get I'm an op....
23:15 <@slightlyoff> later!
23:15 -!- slightlyoff [n=alex@adsl-71-142-160-133.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit []
23:15 < wild_bill2> wow, it seems like every meeting is just rehashing the same thing
23:15 <@dylanks> http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome/DemoSignup
23:16 <@dylanks> wild_bill2: it's a problem with meeting too frequently
23:16 <@bodly> wild_bill2, lately i think thats because i've left the items up there to make sure that eventually we move forward...and we've been moving forward slowly lately
23:16 < wild_bill2> yeah, because we are just discussing the items, not actually working on them.
23:16 <@dylanks> :(
23:16 <@bodly> though i do think we keep narrowing somethings down to specific action items
23:17 < ttrenka> in all fairness, we're looking at some very large tasks that have some long term ramifications
23:17 < brian_skinner> and work does keep getting done
23:17 < ttrenka> and it almost seems like some have to follow others
23:17 <@dylanks> I know that it is frustrating
23:17 < wild_bill2> ok, i have to leave soon too. let's discuss projects that people are actively working on. alex&dylan are busy w/non dojo stuff. tom, how about you?
23:18 <@bodly> yeah they arent' trivial tasks with obvious solutions...they take some brain time to figure out what path to go. I think we have been getting more specific week by week.
23:18 < ttrenka> i've been stuck trying to take care of some outstanding business, and trying to catch up on my writing
23:18 <@dylanks> but Bill is right, we're not getting enough progress
23:19 < brian_skinner> too many day jobs?
23:19 <@dylanks> yeah
23:19 < ttrenka> yeah
23:19 < wild_bill2> yeah, that's open source for you.
23:19 <@bodly> wild_bill2, i'm still working on my ical stuff and non-dojo stuff. However, I think (like I said before) that we are going to have to pitch in and help with the widget refactoring. However i'm not clear on what the specific things I can do to help are.
23:19 <@dylanks> I guess that's another thing
23:20 <@dylanks> I often have 15-30 minutes at a time that could be used for stuff
23:20 < ttrenka> personally i'm afraid to help with the refactor because I get the feeling i'd take it in a totally different direction, and that's not what the project needs
23:20 <@dylanks> but I'm having trouble deciding where to put that short term efforts
23:20 <@bodly> yeah i think thats our action items ;)
23:20 <@bodly> we need more of them and less of idea
23:20 <@dylanks> so then I end up thinking about what else needs fixing and make the list longer :)
23:21 <@bodly> and then of course some of those things are dependant on others so it tough :)
23:21 <@bodly> so as I see there are two ways to do it
23:21 <@dylanks> clone bill
23:21 <@dylanks> :)
23:22 <@bodly> 1. a person sits down and does most all of it once, at least up through all the dependant tasks. Then everyone can in parallel fix the ramifications
23:22 <@bodly> alternatively
23:22 <@bodly> we need a specific detail of the work that needs to be done with dependancies.
23:23 * bodly is amazed at the number of people jumping in to volunteer for #1.
23:23 < mstrout> block out the refactored structure. then get one person to nail the refac and everybody else pitches in to help round the edges, add test cases, and take on the stuff they'd've been doing otherwise
23:23 <@dylanks> right
23:23 <@bodly> yeah, thats basically #1
23:24 <@bodly> but its alot of work for that one person.
23:24 < mstrout> unless the refac can be split into multiple independent refacs whose interdependent interfaces don't need to change
23:24 < mstrout> then you do a final one over the top afterwards
23:24 < wild_bill2> i don't know that there's 1 big refactoring job. there are a number of big jobs, but also small ones, such as the mail I sent a week ago.
23:24 <@bodly> yep, thats #2
23:25 <@bodly> http://dojotoolkit.org/~bill/widgetTasks.html this one?
23:25 < wild_bill2> those are the big tasks
23:25 < wild_bill2> but also, i sent mail about widget resizing changes, to resize via CSS
23:26 <@bodly> oh, hmm i musta missed that one.
23:26 < wild_bill2> eh???
23:26 <@dylanks> I saw it
23:26 <@bodly> i'm not saying it didn't come, i just get so much mail iprobably missed that one.
23:26 <@dylanks> I think the main issue here is that bill is frustrated that he seems to be the only one right now doing any significant dev on this
23:26 <@dylanks> so what can we do to step up and change that
23:26 < wild_bill2> hmm, perhaps :-)
23:27 <@dylanks> I feel like a jerk for the most part
23:27 <@bodly> dylanks, i think one of bills frustration is debugging safari and konq without safari and konq :P
23:27 <@dylanks> for not being able to do more
23:27 < wild_bill2> ha ha
23:27 < ttrenka> dude, you're already coding 16 hours a day
23:27 <@dylanks> yeah, but my dojo checkins are small lately
23:28 <@bodly> wild_bill2, are there any dependancies between items on your list?
23:28 < wild_bill2> no
23:28 < wild_bill2> so, i'm not buying the theory that our problem is not having action items.
23:28 <@bodly> well i'll put my dojo efforts to that.
23:28 <@dylanks> I think it would help with small stuff, but not the bigger problem
23:29 < wild_bill2> you lost me...
23:29 < wild_bill2> you mean, attacking major refactoring tasks such as widget namespace registration?
23:29 <@dylanks> if there are people that want to help with small bits, there's no easy way for them to know what to do on their own
23:29 < wild_bill2> oh. how can we make that better?
23:30 <@bodly> dylanks, hmm, i wonder if we can create a new trac "type"
23:30 <@dylanks> maybe we can file more tickets as we think of things?
23:30 <@bodly> yeah
23:30 < wild_bill2> my impression/hope is that there are lots of secret developers that just didn't feel comfortable contributing their stuff back to the code base.
23:30 <@dylanks> :)
23:31 <@bodly> i think thats probably true and some people still respond negatively to that cla (not that i'm complaining about it)
23:31 <@dylanks> we have over 45 clas now
23:31 <@dylanks> and it is probably the most friendly contract ever
23:31 <@bodly> i know :(
23:32 <@bodly> people argue with us on irc though :P
23:32 <@dylanks> so I think we need a page that explains that process on the site
23:32 <@dylanks> that explains why, in simple friendly terms
23:32 <@dylanks> really, just mentioning SCO should explain it for most
23:32 < wild_bill2> :-)
23:32 <@bodly> that probably be usefull
23:32 <@bodly> :)
23:32 < ttrenka> lol
23:33 <@dylanks> I'll file a ticket
23:33 <@bodly> :P
23:33 < wild_bill2> brian - how is the data provider stuff?
23:34 <@dylanks> http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/466
23:34 < mxpxpod> dylanks: what did you guys do with my dojo contrib agreement?
23:34 <@bodly> Status: Alex & Dylan will make plan for next week (2006/09/15) thats funny
23:34 <@dylanks> it's on file
23:34 < mxpxpod> dylanks: ok
23:34 < brian_skinner> wild_bill2: the bad news is i got sucked into screencasting hell for a bit, so i haven't done any work on the data provider stuff for a couple weeks -- the good news is that i should have a lot of time for it in the month to come
23:35 < wild_bill2> ok.
23:35 < wild_bill2> mxpxpod - what are you up to?
23:35 <@dylanks> bodly: Status: Alex & Dylan will make plan for next week (2006/09/15) thats funny ?
23:35 < brian_skinner> wild_bill2: but now i'm not sure if I should wait and see what other data provider code gets contributed
23:35 <@bodly> well it says next week, but then has september
23:35 < mxpxpod> wild_bill2: docs with neil
23:35 <@dylanks> ah, funny
23:35 < wild_bill2> oops
23:35 < wild_bill2> oh, ok.
23:36 < mxpxpod> ok, I gotta get going... I'll talk to you guys later
23:36 <@bodly> wild_bill2 subconsiously knew you gusy were very busy.
23:36 <@bodly> later
23:36 -!- mxpxpod [n=BryanFor@unaffiliated/mxpxpod] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:36 < wild_bill2> torrey - saw your screenshots. looks good.
23:36 <@dylanks> so I've seen the said data provider stuff
23:36 < wild_bill2> the secret stuff?
23:36 <@dylanks> yeah
23:36 < brian_skinner> excellent
23:36 <@dylanks> it's excellent work
23:36 < brian_skinner> any word on the timing?
23:37 <@dylanks> what I've heard is that they hope to be able to work it in within our roadmap
23:37 < wild_bill2> what does that mean?
23:37 <@dylanks> which to me implies 0.3 or 0.4, but there are still issues to overcome with their legal department
23:37 < brian_skinner> dylanks: so would i be wise to just hold off on doing data provider work for a few weeks?
23:37 <@dylanks> which is why it is delayed
23:37 <@bodly> will it be difficult to put in dojo or will they do the work for that?
23:38 <@dylanks> they are doing that
23:38 < brian_skinner> cool
23:38 <@bodly> awesome...data only or some associated widgets too?
23:38 * bodly corners dylanks and presses him for info.
23:38 <@dylanks> I would assume data at this point
23:39 < wild_bill2> :-( i want widgets!!!
23:39 < wild_bill2> but data is good too :-)(
23:39 <@bodly> heeh
23:39 <@dylanks> yeah, there are widgets, but I haven't seen much of those yet
23:40 < wild_bill2> mstrout - are you working on something?
23:40 <@dylanks> so basically the story I can tell is this
23:40 <@dylanks> a large company wants to donate code to dojo
23:40 <@dylanks> what we've seen so far rocks
23:41 <@dylanks> and we're waiting for their legal department to give the green light
23:41 < wild_bill2> fair enough
23:41 <@dylanks> so we can talk about it and start accepting it
23:41 <@dylanks> :)
23:41 <@bodly> wild_bill2, and i ask them every couple days to make sure it doesn't fall of their plate (Dylan and Alex that is)
23:42 < mstrout> wild_bill2: I'm wanting to do a POE-based pubsub implementation that starts out GPL/AL disjunction
23:42 < wild_bill2> huh?
23:42 < mstrout> plus get enough POE and Catalyst (catalyst.perl.org) people interested it gets major usage
23:42 < mstrout> just waiting for alex to finish figuring out what APIs he wants from me
23:42 <@dylanks> what is POE?
23:42 < brian_skinner> dylanks: thanks for the update
23:42 < mstrout> dylanks: event-driven perl thingy
23:42 <@dylanks> ok, cool
23:43 <@dylanks> I'm giving talks in May and August about dojo+pubsub
23:43 < wild_bill2> sounds like good stuff but not related to the 0.3 discussion (at least not the widget refactoring)
23:44 <@bodly> ok, what else, anything?
23:44 <@dylanks> :)
23:44 < wild_bill2> torrey - how about you?
23:44 <@dylanks> iTorrey bump
23:44 <@bodly> i think we've lost most everyone :P
23:44 <@bodly> slow meeting today
23:44 < iTorrey> looks for the question
23:44 < brian_skinner> dylanks: just wanted to make sure you got my mail about the screencast, and about the CLA for Zhenjian
23:44 < ttrenka> sorry
23:45 < mstrout> wild_bill2: no, sorry. don't know the codebase well enough to start throwing patches yet, let along major changes
23:45 <@dylanks> brian_skinner: yeah, sorry about that
23:45 <@dylanks> the screencast is cool
23:45 < brian_skinner> dylanks: no problem
23:45 <@dylanks> I need to look at the cla list when I get home
23:45 < brian_skinner> thanks
23:45 < iTorrey> Sorry was working on some code. What was the question?
23:45 < wild_bill2> torrey - just wondering what you are doing? i saw the timepicker/datepicker thing
23:45 < iTorrey> Ahh yes
23:45 < iTorrey> :)
23:46 <@bodly> iTorrey is going to add by week selector :P
23:46 < iTorrey> I'm going to be helping to skin the widgets and come up with a nice looking default skin. I also wanna help get some demos going
23:46 <@dylanks> I had a thought
23:46 < brian_skinner> dylanks: does the screencast look okay to you? are you okay with my sending out mail about it to lots of people?
23:46 <@dylanks> perhaps we need to give Torrey a list of widgets to focus on first
23:46 < iTorrey> yes that would be most helpful
23:46 < wild_bill2> well, focus on the ones in the demo :-)
23:46 <@dylanks> brian_skinner: I like it, and I finally learned what open record is such that I will remember it :)
23:47 < brian_skinner> :-)
23:47 < wild_bill2> FYI, I think this is a good demo: http://www.backbase.com/demos/explorer/#intro.xml[0]
23:47 -!- ttrenka [n=ttrenka@c-24-118-178-68.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"]
23:47 <@bodly> ok, so i guess the simple summary of this meeting is that it would be great to have some poeple jump in on bills list and help him knock it out of the way. Also create a single demo of some specific feature
23:48 < wild_bill2> yeah
23:48 <@bodly> wild_bill2, yeah thats the one that slightly off was talking about.
23:48 < wild_bill2> yeah
23:48 < iTorrey> I also wanna help making a nice looking page for displaying the widgets as well. Alex has talked a lot about having a widget gallery kinda like how Konfabulator has.. not sure how useful that is at the moment but in the future it should be
23:48 <@bodly> wild_bill2, thats sort of what I wanted to accomplish with my demo engine
23:48 <@bodly> but haven't gotten back to it yet :(
23:48 < wild_bill2> i know
23:48 < wild_bill2> i don't know konfabulator...
23:49 < mstrout> would people like a "newbie's guide to dojo.io.bind" ?
23:49 < mstrout> I could run through the back button, form submit etc. stuff
23:49 <@dylanks> sure
23:49 < mstrout> would be very noddy, but maybe a good starting point
23:49 <@dylanks> we have something that alex wrote last year, but it is a bit verbose
23:49 < wild_bill2> http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/intro_to_dojo_io.html
23:49 < mstrout> yeah, I've read that
23:49 <@dylanks> :)
23:49 < mstrout> I was thinking something like that but including the IFrameTransport? stuff
23:50 <@bodly> iTorrey, that'd be cool
23:50 < mstrout> and all done with working examples on the page
23:50 < wild_bill2> cool
23:50 < iTorrey> wild_bill2 : Konfab widget gallery http://widgets.yahoo.com/gallery/
23:50 <@dylanks> mstrout: sounds like you've volunteered for a demo ;)
23:50 < iTorrey> I refuse to call it yahoo widget engine
23:50 <@bodly> wild_bill2, http://www.widgetgallery.com/
23:51 <@bodly> hehe
23:51 < mstrout> dylanks: meh, I need to go through and play with this stuff in the next week anyway
23:51 < mstrout> writing it down as I do shouldn't be too hard
23:51 < mstrout> and newbie-eye-view always makes for better tutorials
23:51 < wild_bill2> oh i see. yahoo bought another company
23:51 < mstrout> provided somebody can look over it and tell me what I got wrong :)
23:51 <@dylanks> don't be afraid to signup all at once now: http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome/DemoSignup
23:51 <@bodly> hehe
23:52 <@bodly> i've got to think about it a little :P
23:52 <@dylanks> I was holding back from adding text about it because I didn't want to lock the file :)
23:52 < iTorrey> dylanks: I don't have an account AFAIK
23:52 <@bodly> i'll probably go through the mailing list and see what questions get asked over and over :P
23:52 <@bodly> iTorrey, alex can get you one setup
23:53 < wild_bill2> iTorrey - I guess your theme work hasn't involved any infrastructure changes yet, right?
23:53 <@dylanks> not yet
23:53 < iTorrey> Not yet
23:53 <@dylanks> all style so far
23:54 < wild_bill2> that's cool too. even if we drop the theming infrastructure for this release, we can still check in changes to make all the widgets look nice.
23:54 < wild_bill2> right?
23:54 <@dylanks> absolutely
23:55 < wild_bill2> well, i know everyone's busy, but dylan etc. if you have any advice on the resizing, especially about why IE is hanging, then let me know.
23:56 <@bodly> anything else for meeting right now?
23:56 -!- sjmiles [n=fzappa@adsl-71-131-198-107.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #dojo-meeting
23:56 < wild_bill2> i guess not...
23:56 <@bodly> pottedmeat isn't hear so we'll have to wait on his screencast updates
23:57 <@bodly> but his doc thing is looking good :)
23:57 <@bodly> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/docscripts/doctool.html
23:57 <@dylanks> sorry, was on the other desktop
23:57 <@dylanks> so the issue is that IE is hanging for a really long time?
23:57 < wild_bill2> yeah, when downloading over http;// only. file:// works fine
23:58 <@dylanks> is there something triggering a bunch of http requests?
23:58 <@bodly> and by really long time one user was at 50 mins or something rediculous like that :P
23:58 < wild_bill2> right
23:58 < wild_bill2> yeah, i think it's redownloading the same image. i tried putting the image references in CSS but didn't seem to help.
23:59 < wild_bill2> i'm not sure that's causing the hang.
23:59 <@dylanks> so there's this lovely IE image caching issue
23:59 <@dylanks> it's a several step bug
23:59 <@dylanks> have you tried including them statically in the html, hidden, before the script loads?
--- Day changed Thu Feb 23 2006
00:00 < wild_bill2> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;319546 ?
00:00 < wild_bill2> i'll try that next
00:00 <@dylanks> right
00:00 <@dylanks> there's also a setting in apache that might also be needed
00:00 <@dylanks> it's like a two-step approach sort of thing
00:01 < wild_bill2> ugh, i'd like to avoid requiring that
00:01 <@dylanks> yeah, I know, but everyone has this bug
00:01 <@dylanks> there was a set of articles last year about this issue with google maps mashups
00:02 <@dylanks> with renkoo, we have a horrible workaround which is a php include that lists all of the images in our app
00:02 <@dylanks> and includes them in a hidden div for IE only
00:03 <@dylanks> glad I can provide some value at least :)
00:03 < wild_bill2> yeah, maybe it's a good idea... although I just changed things to load images via CSS; it would be a shame to throw that away.
00:03 < wild_bill2> anyway, thanks. i'll investigate
00:03 <@dylanks> that might work, if the css loads first
00:03 <@dylanks> the key is that it has to cache before js tries to do stuff with it
00:04 < wild_bill2> right.
00:04 < wild_bill2> i really want alex's fix for the CSS loading race condition.
00:04 <@bodly> +11 :)
00:04 <@dylanks> :)
00:05 <@dylanks> the workaround of course is to statically write all of the css files in
00:05 <@dylanks> you know, I bet the debugAtAllCosts stuff could be leverage here
00:06 <@bodly> i thought bill said that wasn't working reliably on his tabs and panes.
00:06 <@bodly> but perhaps i misunderstood.
00:06 <@dylanks> right, I mean adapt that to also use document.write to include the css statically... or is there a race condition even if all of the css is included statically?
00:07 < wild_bill2> not sure
00:07 <@bodly> yeah, i thought he had tested just manually putting them in there
00:07 <@bodly> right bill?
00:07 < wild_bill2> i don't remember. yeah, maybe.
00:07 <@bodly> ok, i've gotta go get the boy ready for bed.
00:08 < wild_bill2> ok
00:08 <@bodly> later :)
00:08 <@dylanks> ok, so I guess that's it for today... don't forget to signup for your demo
00:08 < wild_bill2> "the boy"? you sound like homer simpson.
00:08 < wild_bill2> ok, see everyone later.
00:08 <@bodly> well i do say "why you little..." a lot :P
00:08 <@dylanks> :)
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00:08 < wild_bill2> :-)
00:09 < wild_bill2> peller - i think the meeting just finished, unless you have something to add.
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00:13 <@dylanks> thanks everyone
00:14 < mstrout> dylanks: re pubsub, are you guys the ones with a private implementation that works?
00:15 <@dylanks> yes
00:15 < mstrout> is it liable to make it OSS at any point?
00:16 <@dylanks> yes
00:16 < mstrout> how soon?
00:16 < mstrout> and is there anything I could do to make it sooner?
00:16 < mstrout> a perl implementation would be nice
00:16 < mstrout> but not nice enough to justify re-inventing the wheel on its own :)
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00:35 < ttrenka> i'm back, i know it's much later, is there anything else going on?
00:35 < mstrout> no, they all went
00:35 < mstrout> :)
00:36 < ttrenka> figures.
00:36 < ttrenka> is there a log somewhere?
00:36 < ttrenka> I was asking dylanks but apparently admium is doing some funky stuff for him right now
00:37 < mstrout> if I lob one up, can you post it somewhere?
00:37 < ttrenka> i'm not sure i have access to the wiki, but I know some of the others here do
00:37 < ttrenka> brian?